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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Broads Boat Owners Q & A / Diesel Fuel Issues
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Diesel Fuel Issues

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Dibbler
Mar-05-2010 @ 9:31 AM                           Permalink
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The following posts were removed from the Diesel Prices thread as explained on there.

Posted by Silent_Running Feb-23-2010 @ 6:38pm

Good Lord!! Another broadland rip off, there is no reason to charge thise kind of prices, VAT on all red is still only 5% and the yards keep all the extra duty until they make their annual return which helps cash flow. If that happened in a coastal marina there would be a riot. Many of the riverside pubs charge London prices for poorly kept beer, some yards charge prices out of all proportion to the quality of their work, I do not know how or why you put up with it. There are a good number of notable exceptions particularly south but come on, why do you put up with it.


Posted by Siddy Mar-04-2010 @ 11:33pm

Ok I have to ask  - Whats the 60/40 bit about??

Siddy



Posted by Regulo Mar-05-2010 @ 12:24am

Siddy, In simple terms:

Boats used to get red diesel at the agricultural use price, then the powers that be decided they couldn't have that, and we were faced with paying the same price as white (fully taxed) diesel, as per car users.
It was then agreed that boats that used diesel for heating purposes, as well as propulsion, could be allowed a proportion of every litre bought at heating oil prices. To simplify matters every litre bought would be assumed to be used 60% for propulsion, 40% for heating. Hence 60/40 split. very complicated, but the price per litre is quoted now assuming such a split use. Of course, if you don't have heating on board, you should pay full price.  

Regards, Ray.

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.



Posted by ncsl Mar-05-2010 @ 7:49am

There are some boaters - well me any way - that only use diesel for heating - as I have a petrol engined boat.

So what - in simples terms - is the cost of diesel for heating  ONLY ?


Regards
Lord Paul
ncsl.co.uk

"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday"

<a href="callto://paul-ncsl">SKYPE Me</a>


"Lord Paul of Sealand"
New web site -  www.photographs-r-us.co.uk
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Sorry for any incovenience, guys. I just want to try to keep the Diesel Prices thread tidy and at-a-glance ready for the upcoming season. Cheers











John

This message was edited by Dibbler on Jan-27-16 @ 10:53 AM

Regulo
Mar-05-2010 @ 11:18 AM                           Permalink
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No worries, John.

Shall we continue, here?

Paul, I presume you would be entitled to claim all your diesel at the 40% rate. How that could be done will have to be answered by someone administering this cods up at the sharp end. Boatyard folk on here?

Regards, Ray

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.

Silent_Running
Mar-05-2010 @ 12:54 PM                           Permalink
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“Posted by ncsl Mar-05-2010 @ 7:49am

There are some boaters - well me any way - that only use diesel for heating - as I have a petrol engined boat.

So what - in simples terms - is the cost of diesel for heating  ONLY ?”

The actual price is impossible to quote as that would depend on the base duty and VAT exclusive price at the pump. In your circumstances you should only be paying heating duty and VAT at 5% on top of that. All that is needed is for you to present the retailer with a declaration that 100% of the fuel will be used for heating and power generation and that zero will be used for propulsion. There is no need for any more complication than that and the whole scheme is contrary to popular belief very simple to administer for any retailer that keeps proper records. In your case they would simply include your sale in with the rest of the non propulsion sales on their annual declaration.


http://www.silentrunning.co.uk/

kfurbank
Mar-05-2010 @ 12:59 PM                           Permalink
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Ray,

When purchasing diesel you can request any split that you wish. You need to sign a disclaimer when you purchase diesel, even if you choose a 60/40 split. If you purchase from the same outlet all the time, I believe you can sign once for the year. So NCSL can request 100% of his diesel at the heating rate of tax no problem. HM Customs have indicated that they feel the average user would use 40% for heating and 60% for propulsion and therefore most people would choose a 60/40 split, which is much less likely to prompt an investigation by HM Customs. You are more than welcome to choose any other split, but I would suggest you would need some strong evidence to support this in case of the increasing likely hood of an investigation. In NCSLs case having only diesel heating and a petrol engine on board, he has very strong evidence. It is also worth noting that HM Customs have indicated you are less likely to be investigated if you take the 60/40 split, they haven't said you WILL NOT be investigated. So for those with gas heating onboard, or no diesel heating you could still fall foul if claiming a 60/40 split. However it gets complicated because you could still argue that you run the engine to heat hot water via a calorifier or to charge the batteries etc, therefore some is used for domestic, rather than propulsion.

Given some of the options discussed by HM Customs at the time, separate tanks, changing to White for propulsion, charging all diesel at the full rate of tax, the 60/40 split was actually deemed quite fair and most people didn't want to rock the boat by trying any other split unless they can really truefully justify it as in NCSLs case. Liveaboards who never cruise are another example of someone who may claim 100% heating rate.

Given that 60/40 was going to be such a popular split, that is why diesel prices are normally quoted as 100% propulsion, or with the 60/40 split.

Hope that helps.



Keith

GaryCantley
Mar-05-2010 @ 2:04 PM                           Permalink
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Following that post from Keith I think I'll stick to wind power and wrapping up warm LOL boat-sail


Gary.

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Regulo
Mar-05-2010 @ 2:56 PM                           Permalink
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THanks for all the useful replies.

I wonder, given all the upheaval and effort put into this, whether HM revenue are getting a useful "income" from boating fuel, given it must be a tiny fraction of road fuel tax income. Bureaucracy gone mad, if you ask me, for minimal gain.

Best regards, Ray.

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.

paul&lorna
Mar-05-2010 @ 2:58 PM                           Permalink
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For comparison, our local supplier is 64ppl at the pump for domestic red. I've found some BP garages also do it but a couple of pence dearer.

paul

kfurbank
Mar-05-2010 @ 3:19 PM                           Permalink
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Ray,

It's not often that I stick up for HM Customs or this government, but for years they applied for derogation to the EU which meant that leisure boating diesel usage was exempt from full taxation. In the EU leisure boating diesel usage was taxed more than here, hence the derogation, but not as high as road usage, they have an additional tax band for leisure usage. The EU got fed up with the UK keep applying for derogation and getting cheaper diesel for leisure boating and indicated that they would have to bring tax in line with the rest of the EU. The UK did apply for derogation again, but as expected it was turned down. The UK also had made no effort to work out what to do when derogation ended, effectively giving us another unofficial 12 months breathing space whilst they worked out what to do.

They didn't like the idea of policing another tax band on diesel, which would have bought us into line with the EU, they couldn't keep the lower tax rate and the option of full tax on leisure boating didn't go down well with the boating industry. There was then the added complication of heating or domestic usage on boats and how to tax that. In the end they went for full taxation on propulsion rather than introduce an additional band, making propulsion diesel more expensive than the EU, but softened the blow with the lower tax for the heating and domestic portion and indicating that the 60/40 which is a generous split would be unlikely to attract any interest from HM Customs. Compared to the costs of changing from Red to White diesel, or having to run separate fuel tanks, marinas having to sell White and Red etc, it was a fairly good compromise.

The UK government probably doesn't make much extra tax out of this, but the issue was forced by Brussels and in this case the UK really didn't want it. Why the government didn't just turn around and ignore the EU as so many other EU countries do when it suits them is beyond me.

Keith

zacthedog
Mar-05-2010 @ 7:32 PM                           Permalink
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has there ever been a case of anyone having to prove that tax has been paid - not paid, on the fuel in there tanks ???

Gary
1hr 45mins 66mls away

ncsl
Mar-05-2010 @ 7:42 PM                           Permalink
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Thanks for the replys regarding my heating use.

All I want is about 10 - 15 gals per year for the ebespacher, so guess I would be better off phoning around.  Confused

Regards
Lord Paul
ncsl.co.uk

"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday"

<a href="callto://paul-ncsl">SKYPE Me</a>


"Lord Paul of Sealand"
New web site -  www.photographs-r-us.co.uk
www.lordofsealand.co.uk

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