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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP / Sail and Power
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Sail and Power

Similar Threads That Might Help :
Sail Vs Power| Change from Sail to Power| Power gives way to sail ?| Sail vs. Power| Sailing without a sail!|

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Mercator
Apr-28-2016 @ 8:57 PM                           Permalink
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A long running debate :

When is a sail craft under power

1 sail up engine on but not in gear

2 sail up engine on and in gear

Steve & Maggie.


Not quite an ancient mariner ..... though some say he was at sea before Pontius was a pilate !

JP
Apr-28-2016 @ 9:02 PM                           Permalink
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Engine on is kind of a clue!

Mercator
Apr-28-2016 @ 9:04 PM                           Permalink
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Smile

Steve & Maggie.


Not quite an ancient mariner ..... though some say he was at sea before Pontius was a pilate !

Paladine
Apr-28-2016 @ 9:40 PM                           Permalink
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Sorry, JP, but that is not an answer.

The Navigation Bye Laws say that a “Power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery,” whereas a “Sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail other than a quanted vessel provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

So if a sailing vessel is under sail and has an engine running that is not being used for propulsion (it might simply be charging the battery), it is still a sailing vessel, is it not?

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Mercator
Apr-28-2016 @ 10:05 PM                           Permalink
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Machinery not being used .....

If the engine is switched on / running surely it is being used for something .   Does the bylaw quantify "being used" Pally ?  

Steve & Maggie.


Not quite an ancient mariner ..... though some say he was at sea before Pontius was a pilate !


This message was edited by Mercator on Apr-28-16 @ 10:06 PM

A.J.B.
Apr-28-2016 @ 10:22 PM                           Permalink
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If the engine is running and the sails are up, it isn't difficult to work out what is being used to power the vessel.

Andy

Speleologist
Apr-28-2016 @ 10:22 PM                           Permalink
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The wordiing of this is identical to that in IRPCS. Both are therefore open to interpretation. It is normal practice at sea to define "being used" as "being used for propulsion." For example, if I run an engine to charge the batteries I am still a sailing vessel. This is reinforced by the definition in the Byelaws of a "Power Driven Vessel" as a vessel propelled by machinery, so if the machinery is not providing propulsion then a yacht with sails up and not using manual propulsion must be a sailing vessel. IRPCS uses a similar definition of "Vessel Propelled by Machinery" which would lead to the same probaple conclusion. However as soon as you engage gear you're a power driven vessel.

Robin
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"Posthabui tamen illorum mea seria ludo"

Spider
Apr-28-2016 @ 10:30 PM                           Permalink
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JP gave a flippant answer to a serious question, which is never a good idea. No doubt a spur of the moment response, but a properly considered one would be appreciated. For what it is worth, Speleowhatsit's post seems logical to me.

Unless a yacht is very obviously making headway under power I will always treat it as a sailing vessel.

Paladine
Apr-28-2016 @ 10:39 PM                           Permalink
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The bye law mentions 'propelling machinery'. I suggest that would include the propellor of an engine. If an engine is turned on, but is not in gear and the propellor is not turning, I don't see how that can be 'propelling machinery'.

If a sailing boat is becalmed with its sails up and engine running out of gear, it is being propelled neither by its sail nor its engine, is it.

While this might create some difficulty with rights of way, I think it it fairly obvious that, if a vessel with its sails up and set fore and aft is making 4 mph into a head-wind it isn't sailing.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Cocklegat
Apr-29-2016 @ 10:44 AM                           Permalink
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IRPCS is never 'open to interpretation'  They are concise.
The word propulsion is what matters.  To comply with those regulations a vessel using both power propulsion and sail should display the appropriate lights and shapes indicating its status as a power driven vessel or, when not doing so a sailing vessel.  An engine running but not engaged in propulsion indicates that a vessel remains a sailing vessel. A sailing vessel with the engine engaged shows  a daytime signal of a cone pointing down.  Rare to be seen on the Broads, very common most places abroad.  Not always practical on the Broads where an engine is use off and on frequently. However that does not change the regulations.



This message was edited by Cocklegat on Apr-29-16 @ 10:45 AM

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