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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP / Sail and Power
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Sail and Power

Similar Threads That Might Help :
Sail Vs Power| Change from Sail to Power| Power gives way to sail ?| Sail vs. Power| Sailing without a sail!|

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Paladine
Apr-29-2016 @ 11:12 AM                           Permalink
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But the ColRegs (IRPCS) do not apply on the Broads, so we have to rely on the bye laws, which are not so precise.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Darkhorse
Apr-29-2016 @ 11:39 AM                           Permalink
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Quite important question is 'why do you ask?' It's all very well discussing collision regs etc but if we don't know why the question is asked it is hard to give a useful answer.

The more I practice the luckier I get.

kfurbank
Apr-29-2016 @ 11:43 AM                           Permalink
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I would suggest that if the sail is up, then best to treat it as under sail. Might not be obvious from a distance whether the engine is running or not, even less obvious whether it is in gear or not. There are no Broads byelaws to cover the displaying of a signal to show a saily is under motor as well, so best to err on the side of caution.

In any case whether under motor or not, both parties ultimately have a responsibility to take avoiding action in the case of a possible collision as defined by the byelaws.

Happy to support the honest and reliable pubs and businesses of The Norfolk Broads.

Cocklegat
Apr-29-2016 @ 12:16 PM                           Permalink
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This is not correct, a sailing vessel using its engine as propulsion is clearly defined as a 'power driven vessel' (Under local bye laws) The omission of the daytime signal of a cone pointing down is what needs to be corrected in the local bye laws.  Of course in my own experience the practical side of this is that for as long as I can remember people on the broads are very good at avoiding a collision and where any doubt occurs it is down to everyone to take care.

Coriolis
Apr-29-2016 @ 1:02 PM                           Permalink
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As a practical example of how I actually combine my power choices....

We are an aux yacht, and for choice will sail.  In this case my sails are up (obvs) and my ob motor is either up clear of the water or down (prop submerged) with engine off.

If there's no wind (or sometimes of there's too much!) my sails will be down and I'll move under power of the ob out the back.

What can be confusing for others (I'm acutely aware of this) is when the winds are light, variable or both, and there's lots of other traffic about and maybe it's above How Hill where I used to be able to sail but can't often now due to rampant trees growth...

In this and similar situations I'm still trying to sail but to minimise inconvenience to others who are in more of a hurry I will often drop the motor and start it, but only slip it into gear when it's necessary to make room for others or to get past a particularly difficult stretch.  It takes time to drop and start, so getting it ready for use, just in case, seems sensible to me.

I could wait and sail until I'm stopped broadside across the river but I think that's inconsiderate so sometimes end up motoring with sails still up.  In general I think it's bad form due to the confusion it can create and it's an absolute no-no in my book to use the motor and still demand the rights of way to which sail is entitled (although I have seen a few do that).  

Sometimes it's the only sensible option short of dropping the entire rig, and if I could re-hoist at the touch of a button I might drop the sails to make it clear, but often all I need is a quick squirt to get out of somebody's way and I'm good to sail again - if I dropped the rig every time I'd end the day completely knackered; raising two 75lb spars and the associated 600 sq feet of sail is hard work and takes several minutes, during which time I'm out of control unless I moor up first, and in the trees there's very few places to do that unless I  drop the weight - try that between How Hill and Irstead and let me know how you get on!.

I'd hope that most folks are like me and out to enjoy without causing inconvenience, but in no great rush so if I cause a small delay I'm sorry but am doing my best to minimise the trouble, short of becoming a mobo like so many others....


P.S. There's 15 of us going to Coltishall on Sunday and it's an even bet some of us will be using the motor/sail combination for some of that, especially above Wroxham - but we're all well-behaved(-ish) so won't be claiming rights unless the engines are off
Playful  boat-sail

This message was edited by Coriolis on Apr-29-16 @ 1:07 PM

Speleologist
Apr-29-2016 @ 5:15 PM                           Permalink
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quote:"......
IRPCS is never 'open to interpretation'
......."



In this caas I believe that as written both it and the byelaws are. They both use the definition of a sailing vessel (except for the lack of reference to quanted vessels in IRPCS) as
quote:"......
any vessel under sail other than a quanted vessel provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
......."

What is missing is a definition of being used. Normal practice is to assume it is being used for propulsion, but this is not explicitly stated in either IRPCS or the byelaws. However I think that the definition of a power vessel as a "any vessel driven by machinery" provides the necessary clarity. Itf the machinery is not driving the vessel it vannot be a power driven vessel.

Robin
www.robin.me.uk
"Posthabui tamen illorum mea seria ludo"

dannyboy
Apr-29-2016 @ 5:21 PM                           Permalink
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I think that is a fair interpretation... As for displaying an inverted cone, well I don't have one and I'll bet my bottom dollar that no hire yacht is provided with one. Further, I wonder how many other river users would have the faintest idea (on the Broads that is) of what it meant, or why I was displaying it?

If I am using the engine even with sails up (as an earlier poster has explained) I will give way as any powered vessel would...

Danny


Cocklegat
Apr-30-2016 @ 2:07 PM                           Permalink
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The international regs under definitions state:
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

There is no ambiguity!
With the exception of the Broads the daytime signal for a sailing boat under power is widely used.  It's simple, the confusion is only caused because of the lack of detail in the local bye laws. the fact that, as correctly stated, that presently few people know or understand this day time shape is no reason not to introduce it.   In any event in practice I don't see that the present 'confusion' over all this is a big deal,  But if people feel it is then why not make use of existing rules to get over 'the problem'

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