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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP #2 / Proposed New Tolls Structure
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Proposed New Tolls Structure

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BuffaloBill
Oct-20-2016 @ 12:29 PM                           Permalink
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Our Sheerline is 9.5mts X 3.25mts.
By my calculations that means an increase of £52.96!
Please tell me how my pension is supposed to cover that
with the increases in Insurance, mooring fees etc. too?
We bought a boat on the Broads because we both love it
and then we could come down whenever we had time.
With all the other increases in our daily lives, I feel
a serious re-think is going to happen.
Why I should pay such an increase when Hire craft use
the system far more than private craft really beats me.
Last year the increase was £17.40, so how this appears
to be a fairer system is a joke.
Edited to add that Hire craft are only there to make
money for the operator, so why should I pay more because
they want a reduction?


The older I get...
The better I was....!!


This message was edited by BuffaloBill on Oct-20-16 @ 12:36 PM

TerryTibbs
Oct-20-2016 @ 12:30 PM                           Permalink
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I agree with you both and cannot see there is any way I will keep any of my 3 boats on the Broads if these proposals are passed.

Dave

Je suis Charlie

Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 1:14 PM                           Permalink
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I have just calculated that the proposed increase for weekly-hire motor cruisers, when compared to that proposed for private motor cruisers of the same block area, is the equivalent of the multiplier, which is currently 2.55, being reduced to 2.25.

This is not immediately apparent from the report. So much for simplicity and transparency.

Hire companies will gain. Sailing boat owners will gain. Someone has to make up the shortfall. I wonder which group that will be?

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

TerryTibbs
Oct-20-2016 @ 1:38 PM                           Permalink
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That's exactly the points Ive made in my 2 questions to JP, it will be interesting to see how he responds.

dave

Je suis Charlie

livethedream
Oct-20-2016 @ 3:58 PM                           Permalink
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I fail to see how this is a fairer system! We were discussing this earlier & have to agree with previous comments with regard to the use of private boats which are unlikely to hammer the Broads with use in comparison to hire boats. I also agree wholeheartedly that it does nothing to discourage the increase in the amount & size of larger craft being introduced which I had hoped to see on the decrease on my recent return. What is, in what are looking to being increasingly difficult times financially for people, the BA thinking when they are supposedly trying to attract people to visit the Broads & spend money? Mooring fees increase yearly (including overnight stays), diesel/petrol prices increase, toll fees, does having a boat grant a bottomless purse? Or is it to be turned into a playground for the rich only?

Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 4:15 PM                           Permalink
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The report is lengthy and thickly populated with figures, which, as we all know, can be made to mean anything. However, all those words and figures cannot disguise what a monumental stitch-up it is.

For example, the decline in small private motor boats (under 10sq.m) since 2008 has been put at 517, or 22.6%. Oh, shock, horror, we must cut their tolls to encourage more people to buy little boats.

But, using the proposed level of tolls for that size boat, the lost tolls revenue would be around £6,600. The next size up, 11-20 sq m category, has increased by 155 (or 8.6%). Hmmm, seems like a drop in the ocean, BUT, the additional income from those 155, at the proposed level of tolls, could be as much as £39,800.

That latter amount well and truly cancels out the loss from the little boat numbers falling, so where is there any justification in lowering the small boat tolls? In any case the research commissioned by the BA concluded that ”…most private boat owners (70%) think they will own the same number of boats in the next five years”, so where is the evidence that lowering the tolls will lead to any increase in small boat numbers?

These are extracts from the report (with my emphases):

”While income from private boats has generally been above the estimate, income from the hire boat fleet is continuing to fall.”

So private boat owners are continuing to bolster the BA coffers, while the hire yards, building larger boats which have a much greater high-rental potential that the old Safaris, DC 30s and Bountys, are having their financial contributions to the navigation account reduced?

What sort of crazy accounting is this? The private owners are subsidising the profits of the hire yards. Rather than the hire boat tolls being reduced by the equivalent of a reduction of the multiplier from 2.55 to 2.25, they should be increased to make up the shortfall caused by the proliferation of large, luxury, high-rent cruisers. That is the business model that has been adopted by several hire companies, so they should be prepared to pay for it.

It’s encouraging to note that the NSBA is not in favour of this travesty, either:

”In its letter of 19 July 2016, the NSBA says they do not agree [the proposed structure] is a better system than one including a fixed base element and believe it is contrary to the objective of fairness.

Their case is based on 4 points which had been heard and discussed in both workshops exploring the TR-16 proposals, and were expressed in their letter of 19 July as follows:

a) A fixed element recognises that some costs are not dependent on the size of the vessel. That element should be fixed on the basis that each vessel shares equally in the fixed costs incurred in respect of all vessels, regardless of size, such as the costs of administering the tolls system and the costs of the navigational size of the ranger service.

b) Even with a fixed element, by adopting an additional amount per square metre, the toll calculation is still simple to understand.

c) The indicated reduction in tolls for small boats (possibly over 62% lower) is unnecessarily generous.

d) Larger sailing cruisers, an important part of the local heritage of Broadland, will see significant increases (possibly almost 40% more).

The NSBA’s perspectives on the fairness of the new proposals in relation to the current structure have also been discussed in depth by TR-16 and at the two workshops. This is a matter of judgement. The Group’s view is that the current structure has an unjustified bias against small boats. As the evidence presented in Section 3 above shows, the tolls represents 14% of total annual boat costs for the smallest boats, compared with the 9% average over the whole fleet. The smallest boats represent the segment of the Broads fleet in steepest decline.


(”This is a matter of judgement” = This is what we want, so your opinion doesn’t count.)

The proposals in this report represent a significant change in the charging structure for boats on the Broads.
A judgement was made, using Insight Track’s research findings, as to whether the proposals should be subject to an equality impact assessment.

However, the research evidence, for example that for the average private boat owner the toll represents only 9% of the total costs of owning a boat, suggests that there will not be a disproportionate impact to any specific characteristic groups as a result of the toll review proposals.


Who is ”the average boat owner”? Someone running an elderly Safari 25 on a shoe-string, someone who has a classic wooden river cruiser, or a person who owns the latest Haines 32 Sedan. It’s a totally meaningless phrase.

”Disproportionate”
: too large or too small in comparison with something else.

When it is proposed to increase my toll by 14% and other boat tolls are not being increased at all and many are actually being reduced, that is disproportionate, by any definition.

The proposed toll for my boat would be around 20% of my boating costs. Can I claim a dispensation in line with that proposed for the small boats?




"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

TerryTibbs
Oct-20-2016 @ 6:53 PM                           Permalink
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It would appear that JP has studiously ignored a few postings relating to the proposed new Tolls structure or to respond to well informed responses such as the one from Palladine on this thread.

Can I ask what provision the B.A. have made to cover the shortfall in the money raised from Tolls caused by an exodus of a significant number of Private which some believe will take place if these proposals are implemented?

Je suis Charlie

Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 8:52 PM                           Permalink
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The proposed new toll structure gives the increases and decreases as cash amounts. Historically, they have been expressed as percentages. Why the change? Because the cash figures aren't as frightening as the percentages.

The hire craft multiplier will be abolished, so there will no longer be any connection between private tolls and hire tolls. Why the change? It's easy to see that, if the multiplier was retained, the 20% increase for some of the larger private boats would translate to 45% increase for the equivalent-sized hire boat. The proposed method will enable the private sector to be well and truly clobbered, with the hire fleets nicely separate and cocooned.

The multiplier has, in effect, been reduced from 2.65 to 2.25, so how can the balance of income between the commercial fleet and the private fleet be maintained. The balance is increasingly swinging against the private owner, who can't pass on any increases to customers.

I have worked out the percentage toll increases, or decrease, for each block area, for both private and hire boats, which can read below. I have left spaces where there was no value entered in the table within the report.

My size of private boat (33 m2) will attract a 13.88% increase. The same vessel, in hire, would only be subject to a 0.61% rise. Why do I have the feeling that I am being had over?


       Block      Private     Weekly Hired  
       Area    Motor Boat   Motor Boat
        m2     Toll % +/-   Toll % +/-

       5      -35.31           -----
       6      -29.61       -----
       7      -24.89           -----
       8      -20.91           -----
       9      -17.51           -----
      10      -14.57           -----
      11      -12.01           -----
      12      -9.75           -20.26
      13      -7.75           -18.49
      14      -5.96           -----
      15      -4.02           -15.20
      16      -2.26           -----
      17      -0.65           -12.23
      18       0.82           -10.93
      19       2.18            -9.73
      20       3.43            -8.62
      21       4.59            -7.60
      22       5.67            -6.64
      23       6.67            -5.76
      24       7.61            -4.93
      25       8.48            -4.16
      26       9.30            -3.43
      27      10.08            -2.75
      28      10.80            -2.10
      29      11.49            -1.50
      30      12.14            -0.93
      31      12.75            -0.39
      32      13.33             0.12
      33      13.88             0.61
      34      14.40             1.07
      35      14.90             1.51
      36      15.37             1.93
      37      15.82             2.33
      38      16.26             2.71
      39      16.67             3.08
      40      17.06             3.42
      41      17.44             3.76
      42      17.80             4.08
      43      18.15             4.38
      44      18.48             4.68
      45      18.80             4.96
      46      19.11             5.23
      47      19.41             5.50
      48      19.69             5.75
      49      19.97             5.99
      50      20.23             6.22
      51      20.49             6.45
      52      20.75             6.67
      53      20.97             -----
      54      21.20             7.08



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

JP
Oct-20-2016 @ 8:54 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Dave,

I am not conscious of having ignored any posts on this topic.

We wouldn't want to lose any boats as a results of the proposals and would hope that owners realise that the nearest alternative inland waterway would involve higher charges without the special qualities of the Broads!

The Tolls Working Group is hoping that by reducing the charges for the smaller boats it would help reduce the decline in entry level boating to sustain Broads boating into the future.

J.

Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 9:12 PM                           Permalink
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Is there any empirical evidence that the decline in registration of small boats is indicative of a decline in entry level boating? I suggest that many of the small boats that are no longer registered are rowing boats and inflatables, used as tenders. There are fewer cruisers to be seen towing tenders.

Horning Sailing Club has a very active and popular youth training programme, which has gone from strength to strength in recent years, and its fleet of suitable small sailing craft has grown and grown. I would say that the level of tolls for these small craft has had nothing whatsoever to do with this success.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

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