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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP #2 / Proposed New Tolls Structure
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Proposed New Tolls Structure

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Islander
Oct-20-2016 @ 11:51 PM                           Permalink
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Should this new toll structure be adopted then the tolls will increase by approx £115 next year. How much more will we be asked for the next year. My plans to use my late sisters sailing dinghy and my inflatable this coming year are going to be shelved.

Some of you will know that my wife and I live on one of our cruisers the other is currently part way through a refit. Our 'house boat' has always been tolled as a motor cruiser but as we are not likely to move we will now consider disconnecting the drive and reclassing as a house boat. This could mean quite a saving for us and a loss to the BA. I know that not many people could do this but I'm sure those that can will.

Colin

P.s. Thanks Paladine for bringing the tolls issue to my attention.
Cheers

TerryTibbs
Oct-21-2016 @ 10:04 AM                           Permalink
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No actual response to Pallys fact based postings which show the spin in the proposals to be just that that, simple facts from Pally no response from JP

Je suis Charlie

Paladine
Oct-21-2016 @ 11:22 AM                           Permalink
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Using the figures provided by the Broads Authority in the report, I have compared the total tolls paid on private motor boats this year (c. £1,483,093) (c.£1,616,482) with the sum that would be paid under the new proposals (c. £1,693,161) and, while some will pay more and some will pay less, the average overall increase is a staggering 14.16% 4.74% (when inflation for most of the year has been below 0.5%) for private owners.

Meanwhile, the hire yard owners are being rewarded with a comparitive reduction in the multiplier from 2.55 to the equivalent of 2.25. Carrying out the same exercise regarding the tolls paid on weekly hired motor craft this year (c. £805,937) compared to what would be paid under the new proposals (c. £828,288), the average overall increase  for the hire boats is only 2.77%.

There is no reason to suspect that this imbalance isn't repeated across the other categories of vessel.

No wonder Greg Munford, chief executive of Richardson's, is reported as saying that the plans looked "sensible". He must be laughing all the way to the bank.

John Packman, chief executive of the Broads Authority, is reported as saying "...the key aim is for the system to be fairer...". WHAT??? The toll for my boat goes up by 13.88%, while the rate for the same boat, in weekly hire, would go up by 0.61%. Exactly HOW is that fair?

BA chairman (and co-chair of the working group that has come up with this preposterous proposal) feels that the group had "come up with the best and fairest solution possible." If that's the best they can come up with, they have wasted a year of their lives.

The current system is flawed enough. I thought the idea was to come up with something better. In that, the working group has failed miserably!

Edited to correct figures
"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Oct-29-16 @ 12:10 PM

kfurbank
Oct-21-2016 @ 11:30 AM                           Permalink
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Paladine,

I think there are enough people who have seen through the spin and realise they will be worse off. The question is, what, if anything can we do about it? The proposal has yet to be ratified. Complaints to The BA, followed by ones to the Local Government Ombudsmen? Taken in isolation the increase is unfair, added to last years hike it is outrageous.

Happy to support the honest and reliable pubs and businesses of The Norfolk Broads.

TerryTibbs
Oct-21-2016 @ 11:37 AM                           Permalink
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So let me get that right Pally, JP states that the aim was to keep the income from the Hire Fleet roughly the same as it was last year but at he same time feels that it is OK to increase the burden on the Private Fleet by 14.6%, that doesn't seems fair and equitable to me.

JP I'm sure you will read this, can you justify it?

Dave

Je suis Charlie

Luise
Oct-21-2016 @ 11:48 AM                           Permalink
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I missed last night's “performance” as Dave (TT) calls it, skim-read it just now. No need for JP to back up his spin, surely it's a fait accompli. Statements such as “… the hire boat industry makes an important contribution to our visitor economy” are meaningless (how much of a contribution? Overall percentage?), and “the nearest alternative inland waterway would involve higher charges without the special qualities of the Broads!” is nonsense, surely EVERY inland waterway has its own special qualities, and many consider their extra facilities justify their extra cost.

Keith (kfurbank) hypothesises JP's reaction to “the DVLA deciding to realign the road fund license for lorries and PSVs and then increasing his car road fund license by 16%”. Perhaps: the RHA shouts louder than the AA/RAC? The RHA can be of more use/benefit to my career than the AA/RAC? The Minister of Transport can lose his seat at the next election, I won't? What do I care about the cost of a private owner's road fund license?

But commercial vehicle/private car VED can't really be compared with hire/private craft tolls, can it? Trucks, coaches and buses which use road infrastructure more intensively than a Sunday driver contribute much more to its maintenance by the huge amount of VAT and duty that's added to their annual fuel bill. Maintenance of the Broads navigation comes only from our tolls, so why should mine be increased just to maintain the profits of a commercial enterprise that makes more intensive use of the system than me?

Too late now for me to move my boat for the 2017 season, I have to bite the bullet and pay whatever. But 2018 is a different matter…

Peter

TerryTibbs
Oct-21-2016 @ 12:20 PM                           Permalink
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Peter, there is 5 moths before you have to pay your next Tolls bill and mooring fees normally run in line with the Tolls, I will certainly be looking at the options, I have already today put one of my boats up for sale on a site away from the Broads, I will not Toll my Dinghy next year even if I can't find a berth elsewhere for my Cruiser. Although I am seriously contemplating selling up altogether.

Dave

Je suis Charlie

Paladine
Oct-21-2016 @ 12:28 PM                           Permalink
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"The question is, what, if anything can we do about it? The proposal has yet to be ratified."

Simply expressing our displeasure here, or on any forum, won't have any effect, that's for sure.

The EDP have asked for comments (you can view their article here), so send your comments to Lauren Cope at the EDP.

The Norfolk & Suffolk Boating Association (NSBA) have written to the BA, expressing their objections to the proposals. Those objections have been summarily, and arrogantly, dismissed. If you are a member of the NSBA, send your comments and support to the NSBA Hon. Adminstrator Julia Bower. If you're not a member, now might be a good time to join.

As was rightly pointed out,  the proposals haven't yet been ratified. The report goes before the Navigation Committee on Thursday 27 October (less than a week from now and time is of the essence), so here are the email addresses of the Navigation Committee members. Let them know what you think.

KelvinAllen@btinternet.com
john.ash@broads-authority.gov.uk
linda.aspland@talktalk.net
matthew.bradbury@neneparktrust.org.uk
peterjbdixon@hotmail.com
info@goodchildmarine.co.uk
max.heron@whitlinghamboathouses.co.uk
james@waveneyrivercentre.co.uk
greg.munford@richardsonsgroup.net
nicky.talbot@broads-authority.gov.uk
michaelw@herbertwoods.co.uk
Wilkins@paston.co.uk

Publicise your complaints/concerns/objections, or, if you want to be well-and truly screwed, you can simply lie back and think of England!  Tinhat

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

JP
Oct-21-2016 @ 3:07 PM                           Permalink
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Good Afternoon Paladine

There is an error in your calculations for the income from private boats in this year.

I have taken the figures from Tables 9 and 10 in Appendix 2 of the Committee report and put them into a spreadsheet.

I have tried to send you a copy of the spreadsheet but the system doesn't like the format.

The income this year from private motor boats works out as £1,616,493.99 plus £20,586.92 from electric private motor boats, making a total of £1,637,080.91.

The same vessels are predicted to generate £1,693,154.55 and £17,330.00 under the proposed new structure, making a total of £1,710,484.55, an increase of £73,403.64 (4.5%)

Overall income from all private craft is predicted to rise by 3% - there are reductions for other private boats, for example, houseboats and wherries, which accounts for the slightly higher figure for motor boats.

The overall income from hire craft is also predicted to be +3% - it is slightly more complicated by the proposed removal of the discount for early payment, valued at around £11,000, and the allowance made for the reduction of 20+ weekly hire craft.

So overall the incomes from the two fleets, hire and private, predicted for next year, using the proposed structure, are broadly in line with this year’s income under the old structure +3%.

Hope that helps clarify things – please come back to me with any further questions.

I would be happy to sit down and take you through the figures if that would help.

Regards

John


kfurbank
Oct-21-2016 @ 3:49 PM                           Permalink
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John,

If the BA proceed with the proposed increase then my toll will have increased by 22.5% over the last two years. How can you justify that?

Happy to support the honest and reliable pubs and businesses of The Norfolk Broads.

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