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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP #2 / Evening - Tolls Structure
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Evening - Tolls Structure

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JP
Oct-20-2016 @ 5:15 PM                           Permalink
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Good Evening All,

Many thanks for your rapid responses to the Tolls Working Group proposals for the tolls structure.

Let me try and respond to some of the key points made.

The proposals for charges for next year have been deliberately calculated to retain the same distribution of income between the commercial fleet and the private fleet.

The methodology we have used for setting the individual rates for the different categories in both fleets, is that each category of boat, in each fleet, has been treated separately and a rate per square metre calculated that generates roughly the same amount of income for that category next year, as this year, using the boat numbers for 2016/17.

The sizes of boats in the two fleets, commercial and private, are very different – with a greater proportion of larger boats in the commercial fleet – and therefore they respond differently to the changes in the structure. The proposed new structure for charging produces similar levels of income for each category in each fleet.

There will still be a significant difference between charges for similar craft in the two fleets.

So for example, a weekly hired motor boat of 48 m2, one of the common sizes, would under the proposals pay significantly more, £1389.60 compared to £616.80, for the same sized private motor boat.

Regards

John

Jean&Brian
Oct-20-2016 @ 5:24 PM                           Permalink
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Good evening John

As a starter can I say that while there is never going to be a perfect system this does appear to be unfair to a large part of the Private sector who have to bare the full cost of any increase while the hire boat fleet just pass it on to their customers on a weekly or daily basis, in particular day boats whom I am sure your rangers will agree put a large strain on the system.

            Brian

Member Victor Meldrew Appreciation Society

Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 5:30 PM                           Permalink
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Good evening, JP.

You say, "So for example, a weekly hired motor boat of 48 m2, one of the common sizes, would under the proposals pay significantly more, £1389.60 compared to £616.80, for the same sized private motor boat."

If the existing system continued, with a hire boat multiplier of 2.55, that hire boat would attract a toll of £1572.84. The figure of £1389.60 represents a reduction in that multiplier to 2.25.

I have taken various points across the size range and it is evident that the hire boat tolls will be the equivalent of 2.25 times the private boat toll with the same block area, NOT the current 2.55 times. The hire fleets will be paying less, so how will that result in "the same distribution of income between the commercial fleet and the private fleet."

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Richard
Oct-20-2016 @ 6:36 PM                           Permalink
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As everyone appears to want to keep the Broads as it has been for the last 100 years. I'm totally in agreement that Wherries, and small boats should pay, little or nothing. The same going for unpowered yachts.

But in keeping with that spirit. If you have twin screws, or can't get under Wroxham, then pay higher.

TerryTibbs
Oct-20-2016 @ 6:45 PM                           Permalink
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Who's this everybody Richard?

Dave

Je suis Charlie

JP
Oct-20-2016 @ 8:26 PM                           Permalink
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Evening Paladine,

Let me try and explain the alternative argument and the methodology we have used.

We haven’t used a multiplier to calculate the hire boat charges – it has been driven by maintaining the income from the hire fleet broadly in line with the current year – that happens to be 2.25 times the figure for a private boat.

I will take the same example – because our figures seem to match – please check my calculations.

If we take a 48 m2 Motor Boat, this year it will pay £515.32 in the private fleet and £1,314.07 in the hire fleet.

Under the proposals the toll for the private boat would rise by £101.48 to £616.80 and the hire craft would rise by £75.54 to £1,389.60.

There are 25 private craft of that size so the increase in income would be £2,537.

There are 59 hire craft of that size so the increase in income would be £4,456.86
So for this size of craft, hire boats will be collectively paying more.

From this example you can see the structure of the two fleets is crucial and the fact that the weekly hire fleet is more large boat dominated and the private motor fleet has more smaller boats affects the calculations for total income from the two fleets.

If the multiplier had been maintained as a method for calculating the toll for the hire fleet then the 48 m2 boat in the hire fleet would pay 2.55 times the £616.80 figure = £1,572.84, an increase of £258.77 and the income from the hire fleet would increase by £15,267.43 i.e. 6 times the increased income from the private fleet.

So under the proposals from the Tolls Working Group the relative income from the two fleets is maintained – otherwise the multiplier has the impact of increasing the proportion taken from the hire fleet.

If the fleets were identical in their size composition the multiplier we have the same affect – because they aren’t it has a disproportionate impact on the hire fleet.

Hope that helps – please come back to me if you have further questions.

Regards

J.


JP
Oct-20-2016 @ 8:33 PM                           Permalink
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Good Evening Brian,

Yes I can understand that point of view, but there is also the case that the hire boat industry makes an important contribution to our visitor economy and although some yards seem to be doing well, we know from our discussions with them over the payment of tolls that others are struggling.

Yes, fully agree about day boats, but they do also provide an opportunity for visitors to get on to the water, and may be a family’s first experience of boating – and we want more to take it up.

Regards
John


Paladine
Oct-20-2016 @ 8:40 PM                           Permalink
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This level of micro-management is a recipe for disaster. It is an encouragement, if one was needed, for the hire yards to build ever bigger boats (within the constraints of the bye laws), as they would then be charged proportionately less in tolls.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Jean&Brian
Oct-20-2016 @ 9:00 PM                           Permalink
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John

I fully understand the essential contribution the hire industry makes and have always supported them and like most owners hired for many years, however in the case of day boats in particular but all hire boats in general the additional cost per hire is unlikely to be a deterrent, there are many other factors in the decline of the industry, having said that the whole proposal appears heavy handed and clumsy in targeting particular groups of users.

           Brian

Member Victor Meldrew Appreciation Society

kfurbank
Oct-21-2016 @ 9:32 AM                           Permalink
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These figures which are in the public domain relate to the profit made by one of the big "struggling" boating companies on The Norfolk Broads. I've seen some of the others as well, they look just as healthy.

I think someone is being shafted.

2016
Turnover 6,111,048
Gross profit 1,937,197
Operating profit 653,013

2015
Turnover 6,183,680
Gross profit 1,949,537
Operating profit 618,162

2014
Turnover 5,471,126
Gross profit 1,831,949
Operating profit 609,351



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