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The Norfolk Broads Forum / ASK JP #2 / ASK JP - disgraceful
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Posted By Discussion Topic: ASK JP - disgraceful

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Paladine
Nov-11-2016 @ 10:53 PM                           Permalink
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The cat is well and truly out of the bag. I am very mindful both that John Packman is a member of this forum, and of the ToS. However, I will not resort to name-calling, but feel most strongly that his behaviour towards Richard, his forum and our members has been nothing short of disgraceful.

The first ASK JP session took place last year. We were told that the BA wanted to be more transparent to the stakeholders, which the members of the NBF are. Some people were very dubious and will now be saying, and rightly, ‘I told you so.’ I was one of those who supported the sessions, last year and this, believing, rather naively perhaps, that the BA really did want better communications.

Then came the announcement on the forum, by JP, of the proposals for tolls reform. This brought about a fair amount of reaction, as we know. Some of the questions were answered, others were not. Had it been left there, I would not be writing this.

I was unpleasantly surprised to find that John Packman referred to this forum, and the discussion, in his report to the Broads Authority. In section 7 of his report, which is headed Consultations, he says:

”Section 7 of the Tolls Working Group report sets out the consultation process by which the Authority has gauged the opinion of private and commercial boat owners and engaged with the two main representative bodies, the Broads Hire Boat Federation (BHBF) and the Norfolk and Suffolk Boating Association (NSBA).

Appendix 3 contains the correspondence received from these organisations and the Broads Angling Strategy Group (BASG). Members will see that the BHBF and BASG are broadly content with the proposals.”


He goes on to comment that the NSBA expressed concern about the impact of the new structure on private boat owners.

In para 7.3 he says, ”On 20 October the report to the Navigation Committee was highlighted by the Authority on one of the social media forums and a link to the report provided. That evening an ‘Ask JP’ event provided an on-line opportunity for the Forum’s members to ask questions on the proposals of the Working Group.”

That’s it! There is no mention that, of the 27 forum members who expressed views, or asked questions, only 2 endorsed the proposals. No mention of the strong feelings that were expressed against the proposals.

These are just some of the adverse comments made:

Just what planet is the BA on.

...owners of larger craft will face a larger increase and may feel unfairly treated.

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask! This is bare-faced robbery!!!

22.5% over two years is outrageous.

Hire craft are only there to make money for the operator, so why should I pay more because
they want a reduction?

I …cannot see there is any way I will keep any of my 3 boats on the Broads if these proposals are passed.

I fail to see how this is a fairer system!

…monumental stitch-up

My plans to use my late sisters sailing dinghy and my inflatable this coming year are going to be shelved.

Maintenance of the Broads navigation comes only from our tolls, so why should mine be increased just to maintain the profits of a commercial enterprise that makes more intensive use of the system than me?

...is this the beginning of the end?

...these outrageous proposals.


At no time did John Packman mention to us that we were part of his ‘consultation process’, just another tick he could put in a box. If the reactions and comments of members are not to be reported to the BA meeting, what was the point of it all?

If we are stakeholders who have now been ‘consulted’, why haven’t our views been passed on?

Why did he not join other forums or Facebook groups, that also have stakeholders as members, to canvass their views?

It is my honestly held opinion that Richard’s hospitality, and the forum, have been grossly abused, and used by John Packman for a purpose that was never revealed to us (until now), and for which the forum was never intended.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

rickh
Nov-11-2016 @ 11:47 PM                           Permalink
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Your absolutely right Paladine it is a totally disgrace and abuse of this forum and its member's , its also very typical of BA to bury things they don't want to hear .
Its completely clear that BA have no intention of being more transparent or anything else for that matter they have their agenda and they are sticking to it regardless , hopefully one day this deceitful house of cards will come crashing down ,speaking personally that can't come soon enough .

Richard

NickSouth
Nov-12-2016 @ 1:46 AM                           Permalink
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I've watched these 'Ask JP' threads with interest although I haven't posted for a while.

Nothing that JP does is without intense planning and manipulation.  

This perhaps more than anything else he has done since I have owned a boat and consequently loathed the BA has highlighted this.  It was apparent early on that the Forum would be used for JPs own purposes - in this case to tick a box that said private boat owners had been 'consulted'.

The manipulation of the forum is indeed an insult and I am more and more angry that the BA and JP are completely unaccountable.  

JP's final post of 'Have a nice weekend' could not emphasise the arrogance of this out of control autocratic organisation any more.

See you at Yare House on Friday.  I hope theres a crowd and that the EDP send a photographer.  The embarrassment of a peaceful demonstration and lots of seething mad private boat owners like myself in attendance is the only way to get the message across.

Paladine, you have done a sterling job of analysing the data on here and revealing the lack of fairness and transparency in JP's attempts to justify what is clearly a deliberate attempt to manipulate the figures involved as he has attempted to play this forum like a fish.

Forum consulted.

Box ticked.  

Opinions ignored.

I couldn't agree more with you.

In my opinion he has to go.  But how for gods sake? It's a scandal.  In any other circumstance he would be out of office long ago.  



Nick South
Not hiding behind a pseudonym

cambridgecabby
Nov-12-2016 @ 8:25 AM                           Permalink
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The changes to The Broads over the past 12 months have meant that my wife and I , instead of spending four weeks afloat here have only spent one , the other three being shared between The Thames and The Caledonian Canal network .
We were disgusted by the lack of waste disposal sites , the vast reduction of quiet moorings and by the seeming change of type of fellow hirers, possibly due to the new style of hire craft being built.
We are retiring in three years and it was our intention to purchase a waterside property on the Northern Broads with moorings along with a motor cruiser , at present we would still like to but not if things don't improve .
It seems to me that those in Yare House have no interest what so ever in what the majority of the toll payers needs are and are being driven solely by the large hire yards .
The Broads need the hire yards ,agreed ,but they need the privateers just as much .

I agree that JP seems to have joined the forum with his own agenda and not as he led us to believe with an open mind and intention of transparency.

Hopefully he still reads the forum , now that he has got what he wanted from it , and if he does may I say that his behaviour is far below the standard that anyone in a public office should stoop to and I look forward to his frank and open apology on here for his actions.


no traffic, no fumes, no traffic wardens.......bliss!!

simon

tonybwb
Nov-12-2016 @ 9:51 AM                           Permalink
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I understand that the hire yards are important in many ways, but apparently, they are going through difficult times, although there may be some question about this. However, because of these "difficult times" the burden of the cost of tolling will be reduced for them. How about another group forming: "Private owners going through difficult times" and claiming some relief? Many are retiring, being made redundant, unable to work because of illness, and may not be able to continue boating financially. For many of these, a whole way of life, holidaying, carry on their hobby will come to an end. It won't be just one less boat on the river, it will be 100% change. Will BA recognise this group and help them? Of course not-they are not a charity, are they?

tony b

batrabill
Nov-12-2016 @ 10:10 AM                           Permalink
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Hang on a minute.

This is starting to sound like the other place where school bully sets the tone.

The Broads are in fine shape. At any time there are always negative things happening. But they will get resolved.

"We were disgusted by the lack of waste disposal sites , the vast reduction of quiet moorings and by the seeming change of type of fellow hirers, possibly due to the new style of hire craft being built."

The waste issue is a terribly difficult one caused by the local councils pulling out of a service they had traditionally provided to save money. The BA had to decide if it would become the waste remover for the broads and quite logically decided that that wasn't its job so is now working with parishes to fill in the vacuum left by the councils.
As a result there have been some bags of waste left in the wrong place over this summer but for Christs sake, it's hardly armageddon.

There is a reduction in 24 hour mooring but that too is an ongoing issue where there is a core pressure from land owners to drive prices up or use their ability to remove permission to persue  their own personal needs - like planning decisions.
Once again, over this summer I haven't seen anything that would suggest anything like a crisis.

Bigger hire boats? Yes. Because the world constantly changes. I don't like them much but it's a big river so chill out and calm down.

So the new tolls? Knickers well in a twist. I toll 3 sailing boats, a launch and 2 canoes and all of that came to less than my last bill from the boatyard. Selling my biggest boat because it no longer gets use not because it's toll in changing.

And JP being disgraceful. Nonsense. Grow up. I think it's better he's here. Paladine I think you are over the top.
Also this forum is falling for the Jenny Morgan nonsense that it's all one man. Rubbish. You think other people in the authority are all idiots and don't know what people are saying?

The worst aspect of these fora is where they become a list of moans where everything bad is blamed on the boogie man. That's what the other place is and what makes it so irritating to read.


  

Bill

ChrisHGB
Nov-12-2016 @ 11:29 AM                           Permalink
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I may have lost the plot here.
But surely by agreeing to answer questions via a forum Dr Packman is "consulting" with his "customers/stakeholders". Many others in public office would run a mile.

However I totally deplore subsidising commercial hire at the expense of others.

Chris.

I have swallowed the anchor but
have not tried mud weight yet!

Paladine
Nov-12-2016 @ 11:46 AM                           Permalink
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ChrisHGB, I don't have a problem with being 'consulted'. What I do have a problem with is not having the results of that 'consultation' reported to those on whose behalf the 'consultation' took place. The views of the BHBF, BASG and NSBA are all recorded in John Packman's report. Not one single view expressed by any of our 'consulted' members has been reported.


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

steve
Nov-12-2016 @ 11:49 AM                           Permalink
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Another one from the " I'm alright jack " brigade ,( that's not me  by the way ,I was referring to the post above ),  I respect , and reads pallys posts ,  he does he's homework and research properly in very much depth  ,goes about things in proper , professional manor , holds he's hands up when he's wrong , that's the difference between him and Jenny Morgan , I like to thank pally for all he's done efforts and time ,

steve and vicky

This message was edited by steve on Nov-12-16 @ 4:51 PM

Paladine
Nov-12-2016 @ 11:49 AM                           Permalink
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batrabill, it seems to me that you have missed the point in my OP. It’s not about the tolls issue, it’s not even about the state of the Broads. It’s about the specific behaviour of one individual.

I formed an opinion and gave very clear reasons for how I reached that view. I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to explain, in similar detail, why you regard the behaviour about which I have complained as being acceptable.

Otherwise, we just get into pantomime mode rather early. Oh,yes he did! Oh, no he didn’t!


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

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